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	<title>Comments on: PM-Fu:  How Much Detail Is Enough?</title>
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	<description>Manage your projects.  Don't let them manage you.</description>
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		<title>By: Rick Cogley</title>
		<link>http://www.undocumentedfeatures.com/2007/09/09/how-much-detail-is-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-371</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick Cogley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2009 01:34:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.undocumentedfeatures.com/2007/09/09/how-much-detail-is-enough/#comment-371</guid>
		<description>I think estimation is a balance between getting accurate for the near horizon work, and purposefully staying rough for the far horizon stuff. Your PMs have to understand this, and use either ranges or tighter numbers when they can. It&#039;s an exercise in PR as well, since in any large-ish project you&#039;ll have business-side users clamoring for gantt charts accurate to the second over the next six months (this actually happened to a team I was managing until I beat the business users back with their desired 3000 page gantt :-)

I like the Bruce Henry / LiquidPlanner approach to estimation. It makes good sense. 

Regards,
Rick Cogley
Tokyo</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think estimation is a balance between getting accurate for the near horizon work, and purposefully staying rough for the far horizon stuff. Your PMs have to understand this, and use either ranges or tighter numbers when they can. It&#8217;s an exercise in PR as well, since in any large-ish project you&#8217;ll have business-side users clamoring for gantt charts accurate to the second over the next six months (this actually happened to a team I was managing until I beat the business users back with their desired 3000 page gantt <img src='http://www.undocumentedfeatures.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I like the Bruce Henry / LiquidPlanner approach to estimation. It makes good sense. </p>
<p>Regards,<br />
Rick Cogley<br />
Tokyo</p>
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		<title>By: Undocumented Features &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Predicting How Much Your Schedule Will Slip</title>
		<link>http://www.undocumentedfeatures.com/2007/09/09/how-much-detail-is-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-126</link>
		<dc:creator>Undocumented Features &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Predicting How Much Your Schedule Will Slip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 05:40:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.undocumentedfeatures.com/2007/09/09/how-much-detail-is-enough/#comment-126</guid>
		<description>[...] have written here before on how much detail you should put in your project plan.   In summary, my proposal was to go with sufficiently small detail to be able to keep up with [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] have written here before on how much detail you should put in your project plan.   In summary, my proposal was to go with sufficiently small detail to be able to keep up with [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Undocumented Features &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Estimating 101</title>
		<link>http://www.undocumentedfeatures.com/2007/09/09/how-much-detail-is-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-43</link>
		<dc:creator>Undocumented Features &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Estimating 101</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 03:33:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.undocumentedfeatures.com/2007/09/09/how-much-detail-is-enough/#comment-43</guid>
		<description>[...] posted before on the value of breaking down tasks to small pieces for obtaining quality estimates.  Here&#8217;s another good article supporting the same theory- Web Worker Daily posts on [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] posted before on the value of breaking down tasks to small pieces for obtaining quality estimates.  Here&#8217;s another good article supporting the same theory- Web Worker Daily posts on [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Undocumented Features &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Keeping the Pressure On to Motivate: Another Reason for More Detailed Tasks</title>
		<link>http://www.undocumentedfeatures.com/2007/09/09/how-much-detail-is-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-31</link>
		<dc:creator>Undocumented Features &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Keeping the Pressure On to Motivate: Another Reason for More Detailed Tasks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Oct 2007 18:49:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.undocumentedfeatures.com/2007/09/09/how-much-detail-is-enough/#comment-31</guid>
		<description>[...] written before on the advantages to building your project plans based on shorter, more detailed tasks to get [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] written before on the advantages to building your project plans based on shorter, more detailed tasks to get [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Stacey</title>
		<link>http://www.undocumentedfeatures.com/2007/09/09/how-much-detail-is-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-9</link>
		<dc:creator>Stacey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 23:04:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.undocumentedfeatures.com/2007/09/09/how-much-detail-is-enough/#comment-9</guid>
		<description>When a &quot;1-day&quot; task is not completed, it is like any other incomplete task that missed its deadline.  You manage to that.  This may involve dipping into your reserve time, getting a new estimate from your resource, getting help for your resource, risk management, and whatever else the specific situation calls for.

As far as ranges go, as I said, I agree with that too, however in our business environment a &#039;range&#039; estimate is 100% unacceptable to the business unit.  It&#039;s fast-paced, there&#039;s not a lot of slack in the project plans allowed, and once you commit to a deadline, you must achieve it.

A strong developer who is an effective estimator should by all means be allowed to give more broad estimates.  My experience is that not all quality developers are also quality estimators- there&#039;s a difference.  Some of them are excellent at it and should be granted latitude as a result.  One of our best developers is frankly a horrible estimator.  

For those that are not good at estimating, while they may rail against this method, their estimates get much better when it is used.  Taking the time to break down tasks gives me better estimates, helps them plan their work, and for some of our team it has actuall made them faster and more accurate at their jobs.  If your staff is of quality that longer estimates are reliable, than by all means go with that.

That&#039;s a lot of what this methodology is about.  It is definitely not for all shops and skill levels.  It is aimed at the shop without the senior, experienced staff that is always right on their deadlines.  It&#039;s aimed at the shops where the deadlines can&#039;t be missed and precision matters.

As for whether or not it is micromanagement, that to me is as much about attitude as it is about level of detail.  I am currently following up with my development team, and the rest of my project team, on a daily basis, and they are responding well to it.  Part of what I do is not only ask them where they&#039;re at; I bring them information from other team members, I find out if there&#039;s anything I can do for them, etc.  There&#039;s another manager in our offices who is considered to be a horrible micro-manager and is much hated for it, even though that person tends to follow up with people only once or twice a week.  Whether or not you are micromanaging is, to me, about whether or not you are helping them or getting in their way, not how often you communicate.

Since adopting these methods, we&#039;ve seen a huge increase in the pace at which our project team is moving, attitudes are generally better, and we&#039;re hitting deadlines more effectively.  A lot of people even stop by and give me follow-ups on their own in person now, just to check on the latest project news while they&#039;re there.  It makes my job much easier and keeps people engaged and communicating.

I certainly acknowledge that there&#039;s situations where this methodology would be a dismal failure, it works for us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When a &#8220;1-day&#8221; task is not completed, it is like any other incomplete task that missed its deadline.  You manage to that.  This may involve dipping into your reserve time, getting a new estimate from your resource, getting help for your resource, risk management, and whatever else the specific situation calls for.</p>
<p>As far as ranges go, as I said, I agree with that too, however in our business environment a &#8216;range&#8217; estimate is 100% unacceptable to the business unit.  It&#8217;s fast-paced, there&#8217;s not a lot of slack in the project plans allowed, and once you commit to a deadline, you must achieve it.</p>
<p>A strong developer who is an effective estimator should by all means be allowed to give more broad estimates.  My experience is that not all quality developers are also quality estimators- there&#8217;s a difference.  Some of them are excellent at it and should be granted latitude as a result.  One of our best developers is frankly a horrible estimator.  </p>
<p>For those that are not good at estimating, while they may rail against this method, their estimates get much better when it is used.  Taking the time to break down tasks gives me better estimates, helps them plan their work, and for some of our team it has actuall made them faster and more accurate at their jobs.  If your staff is of quality that longer estimates are reliable, than by all means go with that.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s a lot of what this methodology is about.  It is definitely not for all shops and skill levels.  It is aimed at the shop without the senior, experienced staff that is always right on their deadlines.  It&#8217;s aimed at the shops where the deadlines can&#8217;t be missed and precision matters.</p>
<p>As for whether or not it is micromanagement, that to me is as much about attitude as it is about level of detail.  I am currently following up with my development team, and the rest of my project team, on a daily basis, and they are responding well to it.  Part of what I do is not only ask them where they&#8217;re at; I bring them information from other team members, I find out if there&#8217;s anything I can do for them, etc.  There&#8217;s another manager in our offices who is considered to be a horrible micro-manager and is much hated for it, even though that person tends to follow up with people only once or twice a week.  Whether or not you are micromanaging is, to me, about whether or not you are helping them or getting in their way, not how often you communicate.</p>
<p>Since adopting these methods, we&#8217;ve seen a huge increase in the pace at which our project team is moving, attitudes are generally better, and we&#8217;re hitting deadlines more effectively.  A lot of people even stop by and give me follow-ups on their own in person now, just to check on the latest project news while they&#8217;re there.  It makes my job much easier and keeps people engaged and communicating.</p>
<p>I certainly acknowledge that there&#8217;s situations where this methodology would be a dismal failure, it works for us.</p>
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		<title>By: David Daly</title>
		<link>http://www.undocumentedfeatures.com/2007/09/09/how-much-detail-is-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-8</link>
		<dc:creator>David Daly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 10:09:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.undocumentedfeatures.com/2007/09/09/how-much-detail-is-enough/#comment-8</guid>
		<description>I agree that, once you are close to starting coding, breaking down tasks into 1-3 day chunks is sensible. I also strongly agree with Bruce that ranges are the best way of expressing estimates (as I recently said in my quick guide to estimating at http://outofthetriangle.wordpress.com/2007/09/12/accurate-estimates/)

I would be interested to know what course of action you would recommend when a “1 day” task is not completed? Is it wise to assume that all estimates for 1 day need revising to be 2 days? Or is it better to break down the task into further sub-tasks at this point? I’m not sure.

In my experience strong developers (the most productive and often most critical to the success of your project) will resent tracking a plan at this level of detail. Killing the motivation of your most valuable team members does not make sense to me. I have found it is better to allow strong developers a significant amount of freedom for how they estimate, track and report on tasks that they are responsible. I would reserve “micro management” for those who struggle to be productive without it. I would say that this is a textbook case of a management/leadership trade-off (see my post on the subject at http://outofthetriangle.wordpress.com/2007/07/16/management-and-leadership/).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that, once you are close to starting coding, breaking down tasks into 1-3 day chunks is sensible. I also strongly agree with Bruce that ranges are the best way of expressing estimates (as I recently said in my quick guide to estimating at <a href="http://outofthetriangle.wordpress.com/2007/09/12/accurate-estimates/)" rel="nofollow">http://outofthetriangle.wordpress.com/2007/09/12/accurate-estimates/)</a></p>
<p>I would be interested to know what course of action you would recommend when a “1 day” task is not completed? Is it wise to assume that all estimates for 1 day need revising to be 2 days? Or is it better to break down the task into further sub-tasks at this point? I’m not sure.</p>
<p>In my experience strong developers (the most productive and often most critical to the success of your project) will resent tracking a plan at this level of detail. Killing the motivation of your most valuable team members does not make sense to me. I have found it is better to allow strong developers a significant amount of freedom for how they estimate, track and report on tasks that they are responsible. I would reserve “micro management” for those who struggle to be productive without it. I would say that this is a textbook case of a management/leadership trade-off (see my post on the subject at <a href="http://outofthetriangle.wordpress.com/2007/07/16/management-and-leadership/)" rel="nofollow">http://outofthetriangle.wordpress.com/2007/07/16/management-and-leadership/)</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Stacey</title>
		<link>http://www.undocumentedfeatures.com/2007/09/09/how-much-detail-is-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-4</link>
		<dc:creator>Stacey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 01:15:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.undocumentedfeatures.com/2007/09/09/how-much-detail-is-enough/#comment-4</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the feedback, and I definitely agree with you... ranges have a place in things.  Sometimes you just have to get a best guess and get your project moving.  Obtaining the level of detail I mention in estimates is more expensive as well.  My post above is colored by my current company&#039;s culture, which is very focused on hitting your predicted dates and delivering on time.

That is an important key, I think- what is your company&#039;s culture?  What is your business owner&#039;s goals?  

I think it&#039;s the old &quot;cost, time, or quality&quot; thing.  You can give good estimates, hit your date exactly, and hit your budget exactly, or you can move fast and give up some accuracy.  This is good food for thought about estimates. I&#039;ll ponder that during my trip to DC tomorrow; look to see another post on this subject soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the feedback, and I definitely agree with you&#8230; ranges have a place in things.  Sometimes you just have to get a best guess and get your project moving.  Obtaining the level of detail I mention in estimates is more expensive as well.  My post above is colored by my current company&#8217;s culture, which is very focused on hitting your predicted dates and delivering on time.</p>
<p>That is an important key, I think- what is your company&#8217;s culture?  What is your business owner&#8217;s goals?  </p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s the old &#8220;cost, time, or quality&#8221; thing.  You can give good estimates, hit your date exactly, and hit your budget exactly, or you can move fast and give up some accuracy.  This is good food for thought about estimates. I&#8217;ll ponder that during my trip to DC tomorrow; look to see another post on this subject soon.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce P. Henry</title>
		<link>http://www.undocumentedfeatures.com/2007/09/09/how-much-detail-is-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-3</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce P. Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 22:34:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.undocumentedfeatures.com/2007/09/09/how-much-detail-is-enough/#comment-3</guid>
		<description>I think that you are exactly right that we should be aiming at a detail of tasks that are around 1 day in duration when beginning development.  But there is a cost associated with having a person crank out those estimates.  Often a project will need to &quot;get the go-ahead&quot; from the project sponsor before you can spend development team resources doing detailed estimates.

Those high level estimates are what often are so wrong (as you pointed out).  I think that one of the biggest reasons is that as project team members we’re giving estimates like “2 weeks”. “2 weeks” isn’t really an estimate, it’s a guess, a prediction.

An estimate is something like “1-4 weeks” or “3-5 days”. It really should be a range. One big downside of single-point guesses is that the guess is likely to be treated like a promise. On the other hand, giving a ranged estimate opens the discussion of what could happen (risks) that would push the effort towards the worst case end of the estimate or bring it in towards the best case end.

One of the primary problems is that project managers need a single number to plug into MS Project (or any number of similar tools).  That coupled with the observation that these single-point guesses (especially at the high-level) are treated as promises pretty much make a person want to give up on high-level estimation altogether.

If you always give all of your estimates in ranges (e.g. 4-6 person weeks, 1-3 days, 6-9 staff months, etc) it is quite clear that it is an estimate, not a prediction or a promise.  Giving a range opens the discussion of what could happen (risks) that would push the effort towards the worst case end of the estimate or bring it in towards the best case end.

Another nice thing about ranged estimates is that when you are asked to estimate something with poorly defined requirements you can give wide ranges to communicate the uncertainty. Well defined, believable requirements get estimates like 5-7 weeks whereas poorly defined, nebulous requirements get estimates like 4-20 weeks.  This is especially true when giving high-level estimates.

There&#039;s pretty much no way to get around doing high-level estimates.  Your business needs some idea of the investment required to complete a project in order to make trade-offs.  Hopefully this happens before your development team spends a bunch of time doing detailed estimates.  Also folks in other departments (e.g. marketing, operations, manufacturing,...) need some idea of when they are likely to take delivery of the software.  A team that can accurately (not precisely) give high-level estimates for these things gives their company a real competitive advantage.

So while it &lt;b&gt;is&lt;/b&gt; frustrating, there are ways to do it and retain your sanity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that you are exactly right that we should be aiming at a detail of tasks that are around 1 day in duration when beginning development.  But there is a cost associated with having a person crank out those estimates.  Often a project will need to &#8220;get the go-ahead&#8221; from the project sponsor before you can spend development team resources doing detailed estimates.</p>
<p>Those high level estimates are what often are so wrong (as you pointed out).  I think that one of the biggest reasons is that as project team members we’re giving estimates like “2 weeks”. “2 weeks” isn’t really an estimate, it’s a guess, a prediction.</p>
<p>An estimate is something like “1-4 weeks” or “3-5 days”. It really should be a range. One big downside of single-point guesses is that the guess is likely to be treated like a promise. On the other hand, giving a ranged estimate opens the discussion of what could happen (risks) that would push the effort towards the worst case end of the estimate or bring it in towards the best case end.</p>
<p>One of the primary problems is that project managers need a single number to plug into MS Project (or any number of similar tools).  That coupled with the observation that these single-point guesses (especially at the high-level) are treated as promises pretty much make a person want to give up on high-level estimation altogether.</p>
<p>If you always give all of your estimates in ranges (e.g. 4-6 person weeks, 1-3 days, 6-9 staff months, etc) it is quite clear that it is an estimate, not a prediction or a promise.  Giving a range opens the discussion of what could happen (risks) that would push the effort towards the worst case end of the estimate or bring it in towards the best case end.</p>
<p>Another nice thing about ranged estimates is that when you are asked to estimate something with poorly defined requirements you can give wide ranges to communicate the uncertainty. Well defined, believable requirements get estimates like 5-7 weeks whereas poorly defined, nebulous requirements get estimates like 4-20 weeks.  This is especially true when giving high-level estimates.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s pretty much no way to get around doing high-level estimates.  Your business needs some idea of the investment required to complete a project in order to make trade-offs.  Hopefully this happens before your development team spends a bunch of time doing detailed estimates.  Also folks in other departments (e.g. marketing, operations, manufacturing,&#8230;) need some idea of when they are likely to take delivery of the software.  A team that can accurately (not precisely) give high-level estimates for these things gives their company a real competitive advantage.</p>
<p>So while it <b>is</b> frustrating, there are ways to do it and retain your sanity.</p>
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